hot take

[anundine]

Modern!Obi-wan would and should be deeply and aggressively religious. Specifically I'd argue Catholic, but I could be argued around to some flavor of Orthodox.

Point a: strong parallels between the Order and the Catholic church, particularly re: emphasis on good works, doctrinal emphasis on obedience (particularly later interpretations), historical role as a diplomats and philosophers, a core philosophy that is full of a lot of love and understanding but can and does get twisted around into something really ugly, guilt as a widespread phenomena.

Point b: Obi-wan as a person is defined by his faith. His go-to source of comfort and wisdom and decision-making is a great all-knowing mystical power that pervades the universe. He communes with this unknowable being on a regular basis. At the end of his life he becomes a hermit and contemplates the universe. He is driven by his guilt.

Point c: I feel, in my soul, that given the chance to sob over a rosary Obi-wan would.

Comments

[ermingarden]

This analysis is incredible and you are so right! Especially in point C. And Obi-Wan definitely manifests Catholic Guilt TM even in canon despite not being Catholic. Doctrinally they're not that similar - the biggest difference, I think, is the "once you start down a dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" ethos in the late Republic era, which is very contrary to Catholicism's emphasis on forgiveness.

[anundine]

:D Thank you! The reason I mentioned the doctrinal similarities is because of growing up in America and also the Jedi Apprentice books, especially the latter. To me, a lot of the subtext of what Jinn (and also the council) actually wanted Obi-wan to do was to obey, totally and without question, and punished those they felt were questioning too much. In a similar vein, as an outsider looking in on the, uh, shenanigans of all flavors of American Christianity, I saw a lot of the same stuff-- a lot of the really visible things priests say here emphasizes obedience and unquestioning faith.

[ermingarden]

I never actually read JA - everything I know about it comes from ruth baulding and from Wookieepedia - so that's really interesting to hear! I am both American and Catholic (although as I'm also a lesbian, I'm not exactly a good Catholic vis-à-vis the Vatican, and I'm far from a traditionalist), and I agree that there's definitely a pervasive idea that questioning one's faith is morally wrong, when doubt, in my opinion, is a natural part of one's spiritual life. I do think there are a lot of similarities between the Jedi Order and the Catholic Church, although it depends a lot on individual Star Wars authors' views of the Force: The neo-Platonic "darkness is the absence of light" view is pretty similar to Catholicism in many ways, but the more Manichaean "light and dark are equal and opposite forces" is very different and might have more in common with some strains of evangelicalism, and I've seen both views in different novels/media.

I'm really glad you like the mental image from the other comment! (I imagine everyone goes through a similar experience at one point or another; I was thinking here of what I felt after a friend's death a little over a year ago. Grief with a Catholic accent, if you will.) It's very striking to think of Obi-Wan's grief after Order 66 using familiar symbols and rituals - it makes it hit a little closer to home. This whole discussion of prayer and desperation makes me think of a quote from Les Mis: "There are moments when, whatever the attitude of the body, the soul is on its knees." And, visually speaking, seeing someone go from kneeling upright in prayer to curling in on themself, sobbing on the floor...it's a punch in the gut. "Hurts so good" indeed!

I hope you like the book - it's pretty short, and I found the translation very engaging.

[anundine]

I blew through the first couple of JA books, went "wait a minute", and then never managed to finish the series because they annoyed me That Much. I've had a love-hate relationship with them ever since, because while the version of the order (and Jinn) that they portray drives me up the wall (it doesn't make any sense! It verges into outright emotional abuse! Why this!) they also explain why Obi-wan is the way he is really, really well. I'm kind of glad this and other versions have been made into legends instead of canon, honestly. The idea that these books exist in-universe and are products of outsiders attempting to understand the order really appeals to me. It turns reading the books into something like reading historical texts, where instead of it being a real-world person mirroring their understanding of religion without perhaps thinking through the philosophical implications of what they're writing, it becomes a person of the gffa doing the exact same thing, but it's cooler because it's fictional. And it can be used to extrapolate the position of the jedi within the wider republic culture! Which is also really fun to think about.

Anyway! Back to the topic at hand-- I am also Not Straight, so my take on Christianity is...particularly bitter. I agree with you that doubt is a natural part of spiritual life-- I strongly feel if you don't question, how can it be a real choice you actively make, and not just a habit? Which is why I hit that wall of "doubt is morally wrong" and walk away. It...honestly never occurred to me that you could belong to a faith, but like...badly, as far as the leadership is considered. Which in retrospect it should have! But it never did.

As for the mental image...I can't help but wonder what symbols and rituals he would have used, and how the ones he used for the loss of Jinn would have differed/matched the ones he used for Order 66, and how much that difference would have been caused by accessibility and what would have been discarded earlier. For example, I feel that the making of tea would have been a ritual Obi-wan would have relied on heavily after Jinn, and one he carried with him through the war in an altered form. (Quiet tears like raindrops, making ripples on the surface of the tea, unseen. Letting the grief move through him. vs Going through the process of making tea, because the steps are like a moving meditation and it's the only thing keeping him from loosing his shit wholesale.) But Tattooine isn't the kind of place where getting tea leaves or water is easy-- so does he keep that ritual? Can he keep that ritual? Or lightsaber forms. I can see those being another ritual he clings to after Naboo, but one he he has to set aside after Order 66 because it's too much of a risk.

[ermingarden]

First off, I'm so sorry for the late reply! I've been super busy and haven't been on DW, but I have been thinking about what you said all week.

Thinking about what rituals Obi-Wan would have relied on on Tatooine, I'm struck by what he says to Luke in ANH: "I was once a Jedi Knight, the same as your father." At this point, he no longer thinks of himself as a Jedi; perhaps it would be too painful to try to maintain aspects of Jedi culture completely alone. It reminds me a little of my grandmother, who was a refugee from the Soviet invasion of Latvia during WWII. She was the only member of her family to leave, and as she put it, she had to "close a door" - it was too painful for her even to speak Latvian when she couldn't return to her home, so my mom didn't grow up speaking it. But she closed that door in order to embrace wholeheartedly her new life, first in England and then in the US. In contrast, Obi-Wan's life on Tatooine strikes me as less a way of life than a way of waiting. After losing his home, his culture, his family, he's cut himself off from even those remnants of Jedi culture that he might have preserved - but he hasn't embraced Tatooinian customs either. He's living with his grief and without any of the ritual frameworks societies create in order to help us bear what seems unbearable.

I actually never thought about the implications of Legends media being in-universe fiction - that opens up so many interesting doors! (One of my favorite things about Silmarillion fandom is the way people read between the lines, since it's an in-universe historical source, and I'm excited to export that attitude to SW.)

Oh yeah, I am definitely a Bad Catholic. I sometimes think about leaving (friends often ask me why I don't just become Episcopalian), but if all of us Bad Catholics leave, who's going to push the church to become a better place for the queer folks and women of future generations?

[anundine]

No worries, I've been pretty busy myself. (It's been a whole week? Not two days? ...Time sure is wild.)

I totally forgot about him calling himself a former Jedi! Boy, your analysis there is perfect. Obi-wan...is a refugee in a lot of ways, as are all the survivors of the purge, and a particularly isolated one. I have to wonder if him calling himself a former Jedi was like your grandmother, where it hurt too much so he "closed the door", or if it was more of an active rejection? Is it both? (I am having vague thoughts here about maybe it being about his conception of the Jedi? In that the Jedi are defined by their community ties and the roles they perform for others within the Republic-- Jedi is a thing you do, instead of a thing you are. If he can no longer perform that role, do that job... is he still a Jedi? Is anyone?)

Oh, I hadn't even thought of the Silmarillion fandom! But yes, exactly like that.

That is... huh. That's a good point, and very altruistic, and honestly pretty brave?

[ermingarden]

I think you're totally right about Obi-Wan understanding Jedi-ness (Jedihood?) as essentially defined by action - but at the same time, I don't think he has a clear sense of himself as a person outside of his role as a Jedi.

As for whether it's an active rejection or not: I don't think it is at the start, but later on it depends on how you read Luke's training. On the one hand, you might say that by training Luke he's clearly thinking of the Order and Jedi traditions as something worth continuing; on the other hand, I don't know that Obi-Wan and Yoda actually train Luke as a Jedi. The focus of the training, the way they mislead him, the way Yoda tells him he must kill Vader - it strikes me as less teaching a Padawan and more forging a weapon. This applies more to Yoda than to Obi-Wan, but it always seemed to me that Yoda really hoped that Luke would kill Vader and Palpatine and then it would be over - no more Jedi, no more Sith. Balance and ending. In that sense, it can be read as an abandonment of Jedi ideals and a belief that the Jedi tradition is ultimately fatally flawed. Of course, that interpretation is influenced by having seen the Prequels and recognizing the discrepancy between the Order as it appears in the Prequels and the teachings Obi-Wan and Yoda emphasize when training Luke. I definitely think they both have the best intentions, but some of their choices, although pragmatically defensible, are ethically questionable. I will say that I came to this interpretation years ago, when I was primarily involved in New Republic era fandom, didn't care much about the Prequels, and was therefore less motivated to think favorably of Obi-Wan - and I definitely don't think it's the only way to interpret it! It's just interesting in that it speaks to real despair on the part of Obi-Wan and Yoda; Luke and Leia are their last hope, but it's a hope for an end, not a new beginning. It's Luke's commitment to compassion, an choice that expresses the heart of what it means to be a Jedi, that provides the path to rebuilding the Order - and that choice is an explicit rejection of Yoda's instruction.

I don't think Luke ever consciously comes to that realization about his training, though he certainly harbors some resentment for the deceit. But I wonder if that experience of having someone try to make you into a weapon, but ultimately making your own choices, is part of what makes Luke and Mara relate to each other so well, even though the situations are so radically different....

On a totally different note: I appreciate that, but I don't want to give you the impression that it's totally self-sacrificial! I care deeply about the church, and I stick around because I think it can be better, but also because I'd miss it like crazy if I left. There's a lot of wonder there, and a lot of love, at least for me.

[anundine]

Sorry for not responding for a while, I've been really chewing over what you've said, trying to get my thoughts in order. They're still largely all over the place, but it felt rude to not reply, so here goes!

Yoda and Obi-wan choice, to train Luke as a weapon and not as a Padawan... I agree that it speaks to their lost faith in the Jedi ways-- but, I also think that it is not... a bad thing? That they lost faith in the Order? Or at least the Order as it looked in the late Republic era, and its relationship with the Senate. There's a lot of good in the Order, and they did a lot of good, and there are real, historical reasons the traditions and strictures of the Order were the way they were... but at the end of the day, they also fucked up real hard. The Order allowed itself to be controlled and manipulated by bad faith actors, to the point where they led slave armies. Even when they weren't actively participating in atrocities, a lot of the time they were effectively standing by and letting things happen, because their arrangement with the Senate made it so they couldn't do anything without risking their own vulnerable people. Which, again, makes sense and is pragmatic, but also is an abandonment of their obligation to try. In this light, I think that not teaching Luke like they would a Padawan is actually the more ethical choice here-- otherwise they would be training Luke in a tradition that they themselves did not believe in and felt was fundamentally flawed.

Speaking of ethics, particularly Yoda's emphasis on Luke needing to kill Vader, I actually come at that from the standpoint of that was the more morally sound choice. Vader has killed hundreds, if not thousands of people. His support of Palpatine's regime has killed thousands more. He actively participates in a fascist government, one that commits genocide and participates in slavery on the regular. Sure, he was redeemable in the end... but Yoda and Obi-wan had no way of knowing that. They saw Anakin kill children, kill Padme, kill Resistance members. How many second chances are they meant to give Anakin? How many people have to die for Anakin to find goodness in himself again? And if Anakin could be redeemed, what about other siblings, parents, cousins, children in the Empire? How many deaths are a fair trade for those people? Training Luke as a weapon is the pragmatic choice-- he's the one most likely to succeed, after all-- but that also makes it the most ethical choice, because as far as they are aware, it's kill Vader or the Resistance will be killed.

On the flip side... it's certainly not fair of either Obi-wan or Yoda to do that to Luke. It wouldn't be fair to do that to anybody, and the way they did it, with the lies and the conflicting truths? Extra Not Rad. On a macro scale, what they did was defensible... but on a personal scale, it is... less so. I haven't read much stuff with Mara, so I have no idea if that shared experience is helps them relate to each other, but that sounds right, which is what really matters. The author is dead, long live the author!

[ermingarden]

Well, I really need to apologize for vanishing for two weeks!! I have been thinking about this, though, and I've actually reconsidered some of what I said before.

First of all, I am 100% in agreement with you that trying to kill Vader is the ethical choice. Misleading Luke during his training isn't doing right by him, but it's in service to a larger goal, especially since, if Obi-Wan had told Luke that Vader was his father right off the bat, Luke might have reacted very differently, even possibly heading off to find Vader - his aunt and uncle's deaths definitely stoked his anger toward the Empire, but Vader wasn't directly involved.

Previously, I said that Luke's choice not to kill Vader "expresse[d] the heart of what it means to be a Jedi." In retrospect, I was wrong. I viewed it as a choice motivated primarily by compassion, but I think the motivations were actually different. On the one hand (ha!), Luke refrains from killing Vader because he recognizes that striking him down out of anger would lead to him becoming a force of darkness replacing him. But that is bound up intimately with the second motivation, which is a sense, very much in the vein of Greek tragedy, that to slay one's kin would be particularly taboo; to kill Vader, more than anyone else, would be a monstrous act from Luke's point of view. And that second consideration is based on a worldview in which biological family ties are extremely important - something antithetical to Jedi philosophy as seen in the Prequels.

[ermingarden]

Sorry to comment again, I just couldn't stop thinking about this! I can definitely picture him sobbing over a rosary: the moment when he can't keep reciting the prayers, when the words leave him and he's just left clutching at the beads, thinking not my will, but Yours - but how could this possibly be Your will? and he doesn't have any prayer more coherent than please please please...
(Definitely not extrapolating from personal experience, haha)
I think the reason that sobbing over a rosary is such a powerful image is that it encapsulates the feeling of reaching out in a moment of crisis for something that has brought you comfort in the past and finding none.

On a different note, I read a book recently called Wisdom of the Desert, a collection of sayings and parables by the early Christian Desert Fathers edited and translated by Thomas Merton, and it gave me major Jedi vibes!

[anundine]

Never apologize for double commenting, I live for the validation of comments.
That mental image...that is a good mental image, in a hurts so good kind of way. It's a very post-Order 66 kind of image-- kneeling in the desert of Tattooine, begging for understanding that turns into just plain begging. (I am so sorry you've had to go through something like that, that's really rough.) You're totally right about why that image has so much power. The fact that those scenes tend to be set to a backdrop of stained glass and pooling light certainly doesn't hurt either, haha.

Oh, that sounds like a really neat book, I'll have to check it out!